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Wednesday, 28 November 2012

How sad; another disobedient priest-pray for him

I have been daily attending Mass at Whitefriar's in Dublin. No more. Today, an Irish priest used the word "cup" instead of chalice. After Mass, I approached him and asked him if the Carmelite usage was different and why he used cup. He said that he strongly disagreed with the new translation and that it was his own decision to use the old. I told him I was a Latinist and noticed the change and that chalice was a more exact rendering of the Latin. He agreed. But.... He told me that many people in America disagree with the new translation. Hmmm... I know the Mass I heard is illegal, that it is illicit. Comments, please, and pray for this priest's soul. He is in disobedience not only to his order, but to the Pope. Sad days, and I shall have to walk to another Church in the area and light my candles at other shrines.
Thanks, Wiki


Catechist Kev said...

"I know the Mass I heard is illegal, and the fact that the abrogated form of the Words of Consecration were changed means that it was most likely an invalid Eucharist."

No, I do not believe this is the case, SuperT.

I believe the correct term would be it is *"illicit"*, but still "valid" if he said the four words of consecration correctly.

If he said "This is my body" and "This is my blood" - to my understanding that is valid, despite his use of the word "cup" during the Eucharistic prayer (disobeident and wrong, true - illicit? yes).

EWTN theologian Colin Donovan explains it with the same scenario you encountered:

"Its seems he left out some "its" and "from it", and changed a third "it" to "this cup". There may be others, but the point is made that he made changes he has no right to make, but left the essential form (this is my body, this is .. my blood) intact.

Your parents are right, the form was valid, but illicit. You did fulfill your Mass obligation, and could have received Communion.

If you were traveling and unintentionally went to a truly invalid Mass, you do not need to go to the inconvenience of tracking down another Mass. Its on the celebrant's conscience not yours. Though, I hope you would write his bishop and complain."


Supertradmum said...

Thanks, and I invite others to join this conversation

inara said...

So sad, I will pray for him (though I also think the Mass was still valid).

Who in their right mind would prefer "cup" to "chalice"?? People have no sense of beauty in language, art, or music anymore...plain, utilitarian & ugly is the norm. Or maybe he was just choosing "cup" because he wanted a part of the Mass to be 'his', or because he thought "chalice" sounded 'too fancy'. :o/

My husband had a conversation with someone recently who was irritated by the use of "dewfall" in the new translation of EPII. She had NO understanding of the beautiful imagery there or how it is supposed to recall the manna in the desert. She just thought it was "weird".

Supertradmum said...

Inara, if everyone who reads this post prays for him, he will change....thanks for the good comment.

Dominic Maria said...

What was once valid cannot just suddenly become invalid. So although it is wring it cant affect the validity of the Consecration into does make it an Invalid and Illicit Mass though.

Though to make the Consecration invalid he would have to have changed the form which is "THIS IS MY BODY/BLOOD" as long as the priest says that, the intention is present and the matter is correct then the Consecration will take place.

Supertradmum said...

Inara, also, remember that it is the Eucharist which is invalid or valid not the Mass per se

Lynda said...

This is, terribly, very common in Ireland. There are many churches I could direct you to in Dublin where much liturgical abuses are mundane. Reverent liturgy according to the rubrics is rare. I live in Dublin and would like to meet you sometime. Thanks for all your great witness on the blogs. God bless you and your family.

akp5401 said...

We have one who visits who does the same and still says 'for all' I avoid his Masses, as do others, he makes most of it up. I pray daily for him, I hope he's improved next time, which will be soon.

Anita Moore said...

A note to the bishop seems in order, as you have his admission that this was deliberate and not just a slip of the tongue, and it appears to be an ongoing thing.